Jesus would deeply disapprove of the raids - borders are manmade and all humans have the right to live and try and better themselves. I'd break the law too if it was the only way I could give my child a decent life.

I had a feeling this wasn't going to work. Someone who wants to be here so badly that they took the risk of coming illegally (possibly through extremely dangerous means) is probably not going to pack up and go back just because the government said to.

As far as it supposedly being a better option for those already facing arrest and deportation, the hole in that is that they came here illegally, so why wouldn't they simply try to continue to stay here illegally somehow--continue to evade the system?

Steph, even God set borders by giving the Jews the nation of Israel.

I do feel sorry for these illegal immigrants. By and large, they are good people just trying to make a better life for themselves. But, there is a legal way to get here. I get really angry that my husband and I have been waiting for years for his citizenship to be approved, but we are doing things the legal way, and others need to do the same. How can you make a better life for yourself and your children if you are constantly having to look over your shoulder and be afraid of raids? There are too many stories about families being ripped apart by these raids, or children born in the US being forced back with their parents to countries they have never been to.

We really need to overhaul our crappy immigration system - it is obviously NOT working!

Yet borders everywhere in the world change regularly for all kinds of reasons. I'll stick to no, Jesus wouldn't approve.
But I agree, the immigration system needs to be overhauled and it probably would help if we considered revising a lot of our trade and diplomatic policies toward a number of countries as well.

"...it probably would help if we considered revising a lot of our trade and diplomatic policies toward a number of countries as well."

Brilliant observation, Steph! I wholeheartedly agree!

You know, I'm all for people wanting a better life.

But we have laws. And if the laws aren't allowing enough people to come in then we should fix them.

But for the time being, the illegal immigrants who come here are fully aware that they are breaking the law. And I'm sure they are aware that breaking the law is not without consequences, such as being separated from your family when you are caught.

If we want to have no consequences for the law breakers, then why have the law?

In any case, I have consulted with Zeus on the matter. And boy, what he would do... well that is just a different story.

Illegal Immigration is far from a victimless crime where most just want a better life. Here are some stats that those of us in border states deal with regularly.

From the 2006 (lst Qtr) INS/FBI Statistical Report

“12 Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens. (that’s more than 21,900 murders by illegal aliens since September 11, 2001)

13 people per day are killed by illegal immigrants who drive under the influence of drugs or alcohol. An additional 4,745 premature deaths per year.

62% of all “undocumented immigrants” in the United States are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens, working without a green card.

95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

More than 380,000 “anchor babies” born in the United States in 2005 were to parents who are illegal aliens; making those 380,000 babies automatically U.S. citizens. 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayer.

More than 66% of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

29% (630,000) of the inmates in all state and federal prisons are illegal aliens—at a cost of $1.6 billion annually.

More than 53% of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

More than half of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

More than 43% of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens.

More than 41% of all unemployment checks issued in the United States are to illegal aliens.

58% of all welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens.

Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties in the United States are illegal aliens.

14 out of 31 TV stations in L.A. are Spanish-only.

16 out of 28 TV stations in Phoenix are Spanish only.

15 out of 24 TV stations in Albuquerque are Spanish-only.

More than 34% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens.

More than 24% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are non-English speaking.

More than 39% of California students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens.

More than 42% of California students in grades 1-12 are non-English speaking.

In Los Angeles County, 5.1 million people speak English and 3.9 million speak Spanish.

More than 71% of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California were stolen by illegal aliens or transport “coyotes.”

47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.

63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens.

66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66%, 98% are illegal aliens.

Less than 2% of illegal aliens in the United States are picking crops, but 41% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from illegal immigration, at a cost of nearly $68,000,000,000.00 annually.”

Did you know there are websites devoted to researching the INS/FBI email inserted above? And that many of the above numbers are either fictions or half-truths?

Here's one: http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/i/illegal-aliens.htm

Why would the INS or the FBI would include a break down of the number of Spanish speaking media outlets in certain cities? Where's the crime? Why would the INS or the FBI list national and state welfare numbers?

How does anyone have an accurate percentage of workers being paid under the table? What records could they use to support their numbers?

How about sanctuary cities? I'm sorry, but that has to stop. There's been talk about it here in SF. An illegal juvenile was arrested several times, but because they're a sanctuary city he was never deported back to Mexico, now he's facing charges for attempted murder. If he would have been sent back after the first arrest he wouldn't have been able to create the havoc that he has. Here's the link to the story if anyone's interested: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/08/21/state/n09345...

I know all about how people come here for a better life for them and their children, there are members of my husbands family here illegally so I understand their plight. But at the same time I do not condone it nor feel sorry for them. They too have kids that were born here and I know that when the time comes we'll be the ones that will have to take care of them when their parents get caught. I love those kids, but it irritates me. If their mom would get it together and do things the right way they wouldn't have as much worry.

GS, I take the stats you posted here with a huge grain of salt, since no governmental report from 2006 would list the INS as an agency, since they have been the USCIS since 2003.

Also, a 2007 study by The Immigration Policy Center study found that:

* At the same time that immigration-especially undocumented immigration-has reached or surpassed historic highs, crime rates have declined, notably in cities with large numbers of undocumented immigrants, including border cities like El Paso and San Diego.
* Incarceration rate for native-born men in the 18-39 age group was five times higher than for foreign-born men in the same age group.
* Data from the census and other sources show that for every ethnic group, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are least educated and least acculturated.

I agree that illegal immigration needs to stop and that those doing it are breaking a law. But we need to stop using these scare tactics to make "immigrants" (illegal or otherwise) into the boogeyman. I don't think it helps to get to the root of the problem or aids in generating any real solutions.

Hmmmm, I have 90 days to get things in order before leaving, so I'll go the first week. That makes no sense. If you have them, send them now.

As to what would Jesus think? I don't think he would care. Jesus would not set his sights on the earthly things, instead keeping his eyes on th heavenly.

>I get really angry that my husband and I have been waiting for years for his citizenship to be approved, but we are doing things the legal way, and others need to do the same.

And is your husband living in poverty in Mexico while he waits?

And Great Sommelier--that list is even more ridiculous than it is offensive.

First of all, most of it is just outright untrue. Let's take just one example, "More than 66% of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers." The first time I saw this was in en email forward, but instead of in California, the statistic was about Los Angeles. And the fact is that two thirds of births in Los Angeles in 2001 were to Hispanics, so the statistic makes the wild, irresponsible, and utterly stupid leap to assuming all Hispanics in Los Angeles are illegal. It's on Snopes, as are a few other gems from this list.

Second of all, what the hell does anyone care if a city has Spanish TV? There are lots of citizens who speak the language and to imply that is a problem is xenophobic garbage.

And third, it seems a bit rich for someone with kids to complain about growing population

Martini - We aren't making legal immigrants into the boogeyman. It's the ones who came here illegally that we need to do something about. Thanks for once again trying to blur the lines like all activist against illegal immigration are xenophobes.

Torg, what difference does it make where my husband is while waiting for his citizenship to come through? Does one's financial state or nationality make some more deserving than others? While he was waiting for his (LEGAL!) visa to come here as a student, he was living in the very lovely third world nation of Bangladesh, which, if you check UN statistics, is in much more dire straights than Mexico. Oddly enough, I have lived in both Mexico and Bangladesh and can say that, given my druthers, I would choose Mexico as a "waiting" area over Bangladesh any day! But again, I don't think that makes him more deserving than anyone else waiting in the immigration line. Does someone who can prove they are more worse off than someone else deserve a "pass" if they break the law (which is what illegal immigrants are doing)?

Dave, sorry you felt I was trying to "blur" a line. I myself am vehemently against illegal immigration, which I actually stated in my first post on this topic. I don't think anyone who feels that way is a xenophobe (otherwise, I would consider myself to be, which makes no sense since my father and husband are both immigrants to this country). Nor did I use that word. It has been my experience that the more "scare tactics" that are used against the "illegal immigrants" issue, the more ire people begin to feel in general against all immigrants - or, people just assume that when they meet someone who obviously isn't natively born here (like my husband) that that person is "illegal". Rather than demonizing a whole group of people, it would seem to make more sense to point out factual problems surrounding the illegal immigration issue. THAT could help to get us to a solution. Fear mongering gets us nowhere.

Dave, I see from your avatar that your little one turned 3! Happy birthday to him!

If you're going to compare your husband to other immigrants, I think it matters a great deal. If someone in living in the U.S. with a green card waiting for citizenship, then yes, they're in quite a different set of circumstances than your average immigrant.

The law shouldn't have gray areas Torg. And as far as the stats, I thought I got them from a reputable source, I see now that it wasn't. I apologize. I will check stats before posting now regardless of the source.

And, Torg, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't bring up my child ever again.

Torg, did you miss the point that to get here, he waited in his home country for a LEGAL way to get here? No one handed him a free pass to this country and said "hey, come in"! He did things the legal way, which is what someone coming here illegally should do. He didn't just land here and get handed a green card. He had to wait ages for a visa to even get to this country, and the conditions he was waiting in were less than desirable. Anyone can come here legally, by applying at the US Embassy in their native country and waiting for their immigration visas to be approved. If they don't want to do that, then they should face the consequences of their actions. I don't think these people should have been given the option to "self-deport" - they should have been sent back to their native countries immediately.

I'm not talking about a grey area in the law, I'm talking about being pissed and feeling like you're better because you're doing it the legal way when other people aren't. If you're circumstances are completely different, then it's false to make comparisons. I assumed the husband was living comofrtably in the U.S., if I was wrong, then I'm sorry.

And I'm happy to leave your child out of discussions (since you asked so nicely and all), but honestly if you don't want strangers talking about you or your family, you shouldn't share personal information on the internet.

And, Torg, the "average immigrant" you speak of is exactly like my husband! The "average immigrant" comes here legally and waits for years for their green card and citizenship paperwork to process through the system. The "average immigrant" is not here illegally.

Again, I wasn't clear on the circumstances. I was wrong, and I'm sorry. I am curious about what the immigration process is like from a country besides Mexico. It would be great if you could share more.

>I don't think these people should have been given the option to "self-deport" - they should have been sent back to their native countries immediately.

The situation was not either self-deport or we'll send you home. The situation was, self-deport or we will keep trying to find you wherever you are and hen deport you the less pleasant way. It's not like they had these people in custody.

"I'm not talking about a grey area in the law, I'm talking about being pissed and feeling like you're better because you're doing it the legal way when other people aren't."

If I were an immigrant obeying the law I would of course be pissed about the people who break the law. That just makes sense.

"I'm talking about being pissed and feeling like you're better because you're doing it the legal way...."

Whoa, now I think I am "better than everyone else" because I am following the law!

I am pissed because sources that should be being used by the powers-that-be to get legal immigrants processed are instead being hung up trying to deal with illegal immigrants. I have every right to be pissed about that!

I think that makes sense if you are in the same circumstances. If not, then it's not really a fair comparison.

And where does your vast knowledge and experience on the matter at hand come from Torg?

About how the program works? I read the article and sent in a different article about the same self-deportation program in to the site a while ago.

Actually, the circumstances in Bangladesh are far worse than any I have seen in Mexico, Torg, so I guess I could say he was WORSE off than someone from Mexico. So, by your standards, it should be a fair comparison. AND he chose to do it legally.

I can tell you the process that immigrants have to go through to get here is definately not easy. You must fill out tons of paperwork, pay filing fees, go for many interviews at the embassy and wait for background checks. Then you wait....and wait....and wait....sometimes for years. One thing that many people don't know is that there are only a certain number of visas given out each year in the variety of categories. So you are on a list. It's awful, but that is what our system is - it doesn't work very well at all. We need to intelligently change it so that it works better. But it is the system one must deal with if you want to come here.

Immigration as a whole? How people involved should feel and which feelings are valid? Those are the opinions you are expressing.

Could you stop trying to put words in my mouth (or in my keyboard...) here and on the other thread? Can you point to where I said how people should feel?

Yes I am interested in how you have formed your opinions on immigration as a whole, too.

Torg, try post 22....that one really stands out to me.

"I think that makes sense if you are in the same circumstances. If not, then it's not really a fair comparison."

The circumstance is that you want to come to America to make a better life for yourself. Some people do it legally, some choose to be impatient and break our laws. That is not a good start. Are you really surprised that those who respect our laws and try to immigrate legally are angry when those who break the law are allowed to stay?

> "Are you really surprised that those who respect our laws and try to immigrate legally are angry when those who break the law are allowed to stay?"

Or given the option to "self-deport"???

I formed my views the same way anyone does. I read, I catch the news. I happened to grow up in a border town.

My main views are
1. The best way to control illegal immigration is not fences, border patrol, or deportations, but rather working with Mexico to stimulate their own economy so that people have good jobs and reasons to stay.

2. Some people (not everyone, not you) are especially opposed to allowing more immigration because they are racist. whether they realize it or not.

Well, it may stand out, but it doesn't tell anyone how to feel.

"The best way to control illegal immigration is not fences, border patrol, or deportations, but rather working with Mexico to stimulate their own economy so that people have good jobs and reasons to stay."

That's a nice idea, but it's very hard to do. It's not really our place to interfere with Mexico, and I'm not sure how we can realistically do those things.

> "The best way to control illegal immigration is not fences, border patrol, or deportations, but rather working with Mexico to stimulate their own economy so that people have good jobs and reasons to stay."

Are the only illegal immigrants from Mexico? Or do you think that somehow they just rate more consideration? Illegal immigrants come from all over the world Torg.

I really think Steph has made the best point in this whole thread so far in comment 4: "...it probably would help if we considered revising a lot of our trade and diplomatic policies toward a number of countries as well."

Torg, I would really like you to walk in my shoes, or my husband's or my father's for one day.

>It's not really our place to interfere with Mexico

Doesn't seem to stop us in any other country. : )

It just seems like spending the gajillions of dollars we spend on fencing alone could provide enough investment to get things g