There's one big difference here. McCain doesn't attend this guy's church nor is he his spiritual advisor.Face it, in order to get Republican far right wingers you need to have the Christian right's support. Sad but true.

Reaching out to the fringes of your party by requesting an endorsement is a business decision. Attending a church for 20 years, maintaining a personal relationship, praising the man's work and acknowledging him as a mentor is a very different matter.

It would only be a comparable situation if the endorser (I don't know Hagee's complete record) claimed that white families were fundamentally different from those of other ethnicities, and associated with terrorists overseas (like the visit to Libya) and white supremacists here at home (Farrakhan).

Show me that McCain has been personally associating with David Duke and people like the Oklahoma City bombers, and then I'll consider the two comparable.

But should the Democrats attack this potential weakness? Absolutely! The truth should always be revealed. If it is not a problem, the attack will allow the McCain to explain himself.

I think this hasn't been portrayed as much because we KNOW McCain, the guy has been around for 20 years! We know everything about him! Whereas with Obama, he's very, very fresh. We don't know as much about his character or who he is in general, so I think the shock value there was a little higher.

But sure the Dems should use it, they're twisting McCain's words and showing them next to images of our troops being blown up, apparently nothing is off limits...

I agree with Lain and Beamer, this was a business decision. McCain does not hang out with this guy. And seriously, do we think Obama really hung out so much with his pastor that they became like, mental twins? Just because you are friends or associate with someone doesn't mean you absorb everything they say into your own personal mantra.

Seriously, this is silly, and we need to move on.

I agree with Kris that we need to move on, but otherwise this whole situation is f**ed up. Obama has distanced himself from his pastor, while McCain sought out and STILL accepts the endorsement of an anti-Catholic, anti-gay, anti-Muslim nutjob. It just show the lengths that McCain, who I used to admire for standing up to the religious right, will go to to win the presidency. SAD.

I agree with Lain, cab, and beamer.

I do not find McCain any more sad, then Obama, since the ONLY reason Obama is distancing himself from Wright is for the presidency. He had 20 years to do so, and chooses now? I find that a bit more pathetic.

Obama distanced himself AFTER people found out about this guy. He was his spiritual advisor, friend, and pastor for 20+ years. Not the case with McCain.

I obviously do not agree with Hagee...I am appalled by his words. But it's not the same.

I'm on the McCain train this morning. choo choo!

Agreeing with tif, lain, cab, kris and beamer

Good morning all

morning Sy, and everyone!

Did anyone catch Howard Dean on Fox News Sunday?? I almost through a shoe at the TV!

So espousing hate is okay as long as it's a business decision? There's some interesting morality for you.

Morning ladies!

Well it seems to be okay as long as you do a bit of charity work.

Well it seems to be okay as long as you do a bit of charity work.

I think Hagee is a CRAZY! As well as WRIGHT. But, I think that, just as the others have said, Hagee was not McCain's pastor for the past 20 years nor any of those other things that Wright was to Obama. Plus, ultimately, I agree with Liberty that neither Wright nor Hagee are running for president.

So distancing yourself from hate only as a business decision is moral?

Plus I think Frank Rich is way off calling it a double standard between white and black politicians... Obama and Hilary are still fighting it out in the primaries, hence both of their camps will take serious beatings from one another until one becomes the nominee... and THEN it will be on for all politicians, white black or purple.

If there is a high road, the DNC is not taking it. In fact, probably no one will take it once this thing really gets underway.

I am so done with Pastorgate, on both sides. I think probably every other time I go to church I hear something I don't agree with from the pastor. and anyone who is familar with marriage knows that you can spend 20 years with someone and suddlenly you don't know them anymore. People change, and people surprise us. I will not hold it against McCain OR Obama, because I know they are individuals, and not a pastor.

I can honestly say, I agree with 99% of what the priests say while I am at church. And if they spewed hate, I would walk out and find a new church.

I am honestly so sick to death of hearing about Rev. Wright... now I just change the channel... Maybe if we all change the channel when he comes on then it will go away!!!

I think both these pastors are dangerous, deranged men who don't deserve their titles. I don't hold that against either of the candidates. Some did bring up a good point however, that Obama is only now distancing himself from Wright since he's running for president - what about the last 20 years? But we don't know how Wright may have changed, I don't think any of us ever attended his church. That's not for me to speculate though (how much he may or may not have changed).
There is a high road and it should be taken.

On a side note I just thought about Hagee this weekend and wondered what his thoughts were about the cyclone that killed 4,000 people in Myanmar.

Except that Obama has denounced Wright's sermons and ideas, while McCain has welcomed this guy's endorsement.

Has McCain really welcomed it, or just not responded yet? My guess is he sought the endorsement of a big evangelical without putting much thought into it.

Just because he welcomes the endorsement doesn't mean he agrees with his sermons and ideas. Is it a good move, no, but it doesn't make him a follower of Hagee's views.

Many people shop at Walmart, does that mean they agree with Sam Walton's ideas and philosophies or the companies ideas? (insert any chain in there you wish if you, like me, don't shop at Walmart).

Anyone who decides his/her President based on their "controversial" pastors/priests/whatever doesn't deserve a vote. Wright/Hagee clearly love the spotlight and publicity and say a lot of crap to shock people, and it's about time that the media stopped giving them attention.

Also, the Roman Catholic Church is the "Great wh*re"? Does that make me a regular customer? Hmmm...

well frankly it's about time religion was truly separated from politics, but we all know that is unlikely to happen! anyone can have morals, and anyone can be deficient in them.

Good morning ladies!

I don't think we've heard much about this because the dems are still busy infighting. Bringing this out now is good for McCain because it gives him a chance to respond to it without "the other side" really taking time to investigate and exploit it. By the time they get around to really going after McCain, this will be old news.

That said, I think it's important to know where our candidates stand morally, and the best judge of a moral character is through religion.

I am soooo tired of talking about this, but the fact is that the church was famous for it's outreach. To be a part of this church, you needed to also be enrolled in a "ministry": helping domestic abuse surviors, AIDS/HIV patients, literacy programs, helping homeless, drug abuse programs, housing and employment programs, etc. It would make sense to me that Obama, as a community organizer, would be attracted to the vast network of community outreach that Trinity offered.

Newsweek:
It"It's his deep faith in God and his desire to be an agent of change in the world. That's kind of the Trinity mantra,"

Trinity was an early leader in ministering to people with HIV and AIDS. It offers housing and employment programs to people in need. It has scholarship programs and services for cancer patients, domestic abuse victims, drug addicts and more. Members are expected to volunteer for one or more of these ministries.

People familiar with Trinity compare its emphasis on African culture to the way some Catholic churches play up Irish or Italian roots. And they emphatically reject the accusations in widely circulated e-mails that the church is separatist or turns away white members.

"That's such a bunch of hooey," said Hoffman, who is white.

She tells the story of a group of young Germans visiting the church. Wright met with them before the service and prayed with them in German, she said. Later, he delivered part of his sermon in German and the choir sang in German.

**To me, it says a WHOLE LOT that this church was helping AIDS patients in the 1980s. People were really, really scared of AIDS back then, and for them to be one of the first to help these patients takes a lot of courage.

Jillness, I know you feel strongly about this topic, but all the charity that the church that Wright is a part of does, is no more spectacular then the charity work that other religions partake in. So I am not quite sure why it matters how much charity work Trinity does. Obama could have found that anywhere in most any religion or sect of Christianity.

I don't know...it's important to know about candidates' religion, but is that the best judge of their morals? I don't think so. You can be a moral person and not go to church, IMO, or go to church every week and beat your wife. Just throwing that out there...

em your avatar perplexes me to no end... i tried to click on it to see it bigger but its not working for me... is that your dog in a shirt on two legs dancing???

I, too, am incredibly sick of this.

I can see both sides of the argument here.

I understand that McCain needed to cater to the Christian right in order to get the nom. That doesn't mean I think it's the *right* thing, but I'd rather have him get the nom than someone who went for the Christian right vote because they believe in their causes.

As for the Obama issue, I'm just not sure how I feel. I can see how people would be distrustful if Obama sat in church for 20 years listening to sermons like the ones that have been broadcast.

But what I don't know is this: Did Wright preach like that every Sunday for 20 years? Or is what we're seeing the few and the only sound bytes of him going off the hook?

I wasn't in church with him every Sunday for 20 years, none of us was. So what do we know, other than what the media chooses to show us? If anyone has any insight on this I would be curious.

I also don't understand the dynamics of church groups in Chicago. I mean, if you wanted to be involved in an org that did a ton of good an enacted social change, and you were religous, you probably aligned yourself with a big church. Maybe the other options were worse?

I guess I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt because I like him for many other reasons, and I've never heard him say any of the things that Wright said.

I agree with you a little em, but there are many more moral people involved with religion, than there are moral people who aren't. Yes, there are the bad guys in religion (the wife beaters, sexual deviants, etc...) but they aren't the norm.

Hagee may not be McCain's personal minister, but McCain - KNOWING what kinds of stands Hagee has taken, KNOWING that he blamed the prospect of a gay-rights parade for the destruction of New Orleans, KNOWING that the man thinks we should start a "holy war" with Iran and KNOWING about all of the other offensive, bigoted and hatefilled comments Hagee has made - SOUGHT OUT HIS ENDORSEMENT. Essentially, by doing so, he's saying that he agrees with enough of what Hagee has preached about during his career that he wants Hagee to give him a "stamp of approval" to his flock. McCain WANTS to be supported by racists, bigots and hatemongers. No matter how you want to spin it, that's NOT a good thing, and not anyone I'd want running the country.

As for Obama, while he certain did so too late, at least he HAS denounced Wright's statements and quit attending Wright's church. I don't consider Wright to be much better than Hagee, and his relationship with Obama certainly troubles me. This is one of the main reasons I still have no idea who I feel I can actually support in the presidential race. Being a Democrat, obviously I think either Clinton or Obama are preferable to McCain, but it's mainly just by a matter of degrees.

kimpossible - One big difference between McCain/Hagee and Obama/Wright is that Obama, even though he was a member of Wright's church, did not - to the best of my knowledge - ask him for an endorsement of his candidacy. McCain, however, wanted Hagee's endorsement, deliberately sought it out and has spoken frequently of being proud that Hagee would give him and endorsement and that he welcomes it.

I do agree that who someone's pastor is or who what pastor someone is endorsed by isn't the end-all or be-all of their candidacy, but - especially when the endorsement is actively sought or the membership in the church has been long-term - I do think it says something about the person. It's not something that would truly be a deciding factor for me, but it is something I will take into account.

I am more concerned that people who are running churches are just f***ing crazy these days. Remember when people used to go to church to pray?

According to Newsweek one of the reasons Oprah left Trinity in the EARLY 90s was Wright's incendiary remarks. That sounds like about 20 years ago to me. I certainly don't believe that Obama believes in the stuff that Wright spews, but at the very LEAST doesn't it make him a bad judge of character?
I've already expressed my extreme HATE for Hagee on other threads. I hope that he's miserable, which I'm sure he is because anyone who lives with that much hate in his heart must be. I think it's pretty disgusting that McCain sought out his endorsement. I get it politically...but still.
BUT I too am sick of all of these religious leaders. I think that they are giving organized religion a bad name. It's a shame and if I never hear Wright or Hagee every again I will be a HAPPY woman.

If you don't agree with what he says why seek his endorsement at all, stick to your morals instead of selling out to an anti semite, homosexual bashing FREAK so you can become president. That's as pathetic as 20 years if not more.

And saying America deserved 9/11 is as bad as saying Kattrina came to NOLA because of homosexuals, dude there are homosexuals everywhere, so he needs to shut the fug up!!!!!!!! So as long as he loves America and hates other people based on their religious preference he's not as hateful as Rev. Wright and McCain should not be slammed like Obama was?

I agree Harmony. Oh, dear Lord, this political season is sparing no one. Not even God. I thought we put all of this behind us with Kennedy and the Roman Catholic question. What is said in church should stay in church and a relationship between a person and their God is personal no matter how foolish their shepherd's are. Look to the candidates actions, not his minister's. There you will find the man in full.

"but all the charity that the church that Wright is a part of does, is no more spectacular then the charity work that other religions partake in."

I disagree. First of all, it is an assumption to suggest that this church only does as much charity as any other church. Secondly, the church under Wright was so extraordinary that it got the attention of President Bill Clinton, and lead to him inviting Wright to the White House.

Why would he be invited to the White House if they were just like all the others?

"Look to the candidates actions, not his minister's. There you will find the man in full."

I agree! No where in Obama's actions, policies ideas, or history is there a hint of this kind of extremism. I am sure the same can be said for John McCain.

I don't want to offend anyone, but I see similariti