Burning a flag is legal, but what the hell? If you hate america then get the hell out of the country. Burning a symbol of our nation...that's just offensive to me.

Every nations flag should be respected. Yes we have free speech, but just because it its not illegal doesn't mean its not wrong.

minus one it

Totally agree cabaker. There are lots of things that aren't illegal that it's still inappropriate to do. "Just because you can" is never a good reason...

Why drag this hoary debate out again?
Most of the time, if someone's burning an American flag they're either protesting in another country or disposing of an old flag:

The only definitive answer is found in the US Flag Code. TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 8(k). It states:
"The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning"

We've been through this every election year for decades!

Free speech for all.. whether you agree with it or not! "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend {to the death} your right to say it." One of my many favorite quotes and attributed to Voltaire.

Insanely immature, tacky, and mad disrespectful... but free speech. The end.

I absolutely agree that free speech should be protected for everyone, no matter what they are saying. But at the same time I feel like its used as a carte blanche nowadays and people hide behind it whenever someone comes under fire for obviously offensive acts. When the First Amendment was written, it was written in a time where personal responsibility mattered. Unfortunately today, thats not the case.

With any thing said or action taken it is the context in which it is done that is the heart of the matter.

As I've said before my country is the beautiful words on the documents which gave her life. The Declaration, the Constitution and the Rights. Not any administration. These people are just temporary stewards for which we throw cation to the wind and place in power. They are also the intended target of such mayhem as flag burning. I would challenge any to find a flag burner who protests the documents, the real America. These people do not hate their country. However, I can see how their passions left unbridled do suggest a certain hatred.

Like I said in my comments regarding aggressive protests on the anniversary of the Iraq war. If you're a protester your not going to convince the masses by taking actions that make them recoil from the messenger. Your purpose is to enlighten on an intellectual point not destroy any possibility for discussion by taking actions which will shut down any receptivity other than anger and shock.

Finally as for those who are against flag burning as I am just know what it's really directed at. These people don't hate their county. As for those who would do such a thing or have done such a thing you need to think smarter if you're going to get your message across.

Well said hypnoticmix!

i would never burn the american flag but in the end its just a symbol and i would never let a symbol mean more than what it represents. if someone burns an american flag in front of me its not going to make me forget what america means to me. and most importantly our flag is not more important than our people. its an emotional issue, but lets not let this distract from the real ones.

hypnoticmix, very well said! Love your posts!

stephley, that is a good point as well.

I know that it's just a piece of cloth, but as a veteran I don't even like to see a flag drag on the ground let alone be burned.

Thanks Jessie M and Jillness. I just try to keep it real and not get lost in the semantics of it all.

Although the very act is shocking what interests me more is the what sparks the anger to lead to such an action. The answer will always be found in the root of the problem. I tend to believe our focus is misguided. We waste too much time squabbling over tactics and reactions and forget what started it all. There in lies the answer and the cure.

I call it preventative protesting.

I always thought a better statement of protest of our policies would be to wash our flag.

Well of course it's free speech. But I don't like it.
There's absolutely no point. Hate America? Then do something better than flag burning to make this country a better place.

Offensive? Not unless it was on George Bush at the time.

Individuals who align flag burning with free speech are mistaken and quite ignorant. Free speech involves speech/words. Flag burning is not speech. The flag is a symbol that represent what the US stands for. Flag burning is the destruction of the symbol and in turn what the country represents. If the laws and government activities don't fit what the flag represents: protest, petition, actively stir things up. If you are mute...write it out.

Individuals who align flag burning with free speech are mistaken and quite ignorant. Free speech involves speech/words. Flag burning is not speech. The flag is a symbol that represent what the US stands for. Flag burning is the destruction of the symbol and in turn what the country represents. If the laws and government activities don't fit what the flag represents: protest, petition, actively stir things up. If you are mute...write it out.

Great idea BloodyFufu!

I think that it's right that flag burning is legal but I still think it is disrespectful to everyone who has worked to make our country a good place. Also, as someone else said, there are more effective ways to promote change and to express discontent with the country.

if flag burning is the best way for an individual to express them self, a better vocabulary should be sought. yes, it's within our rights to burn the flag, but like mondaymoos said just because you can isn't a good enough reason to do it. burning the flag makes it even harder for people to hear the argument and understand the discontent.

It's free speech. And it's only a symbol. And I have to agree with Taadie's point of not letting a symbol mean more than what it represents.

I'd rather see people protesting by burning a piece of cloth than by being violent or destructive of personal property.

I respect other's right to do it but there is no way I would put a flame to the flag. I won't dare even eat off of a flag paper plate or use a U. S. flag paper napkin at a 4th of July BBQ... that seems pretty wrong to me as well.

If I may, I would like to play deviles advocate on the whole "it's just a symbol" response. What other symbols do we, as Americans cherish? The Washington monument? Mount Rushmore is just a symbol. Why not let us paint those to show our anger and outrage at any administrations misuse of power, real or perceived. At what point does the destruction of a symbol become more than just an act of outrage, and if one act is legal, then why aren't all acts covered?

The difference between the flag being just a symbol, and monuments like Rushmore (IMHO), is that the flag is something that can be bought at any store, displayed in any place, in any country, and people can do with it what they please. It is a person's property, but their property, because of what it is and how it is has been historically used, represents a lot of emotions, standards, and values to a lot of people. Understandably people get angry about flag burning, but again..it is THEIR property to do with as they please.

Monuments are public property, so they cannot be compared. A person has every right to destroy something they own, symbolic or not, but if it is not theirs, if they did not pay for it completely out of their own pocket.... its not protest or free speech...its just vandalism.

Great point to think on, Undave35!

Sidenote- Yes I realize vandalism *can be* a form of protest. I just ignore it completely as I see it as completely counter-productive, as is flag burning. ( see hypnoticmix's post above about taking actions that scare away the masses rather than show them your viewpoint...his post explains it much better than I would ever be able to )

Did an actual recent event inspire this question?

kriskahn21, f.y.i. "the right is not confined to verbal speech but is understood to protect any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used."

You say stir thing up. Well to steal a line from Mr. Connery I like my audiences stirred not shaken. This is precisely the point, you want to stir peoples intellect, imagination, consciousness and engage them on a level of exchanging ideas. Standing on a street corner screaming unintelligibly at the tops of our lungs at each other while the masses are mapping out the quickest get away from your location is not going to convince anyone.

hypnotic - I agree with what you said about the government being the intended recipient, however, I disagree that it doesn't get the point across or removes any room for discussion. In all honesty, I have seen Flag Burning bring about such a wide array of reactions that it was impossible not to talk about it and get the ball rolling. Burning the banner our country waves so proudly and that so many "wartime Patriots", as I like to call them, flaunt as if it is the banner of God himself, tends to get a lot of reaction from people and tends to stand out more than someone just sitting on the street passing out fliers, in my experience.

robinesque - you said EXACTLY what I was thinking. The quote you used is pretty much one of my all time favorite quotes, and I think that a lot of people forget that free speech stands even when you don't agree with what is being said.

An American flag, while a symbol of this country, is usually the owners private property, and can be quite expensive. If they want to burn their expensive symbol, they can be my guest. The thing that most people seem to forget, though, is that anymore, the flag does not represent the beautiful principals that this country was founded upon, especially not to the rest of the world.

It represents a capitalist system that has what the Sociologists refer to as "two welfare systems, one for the richest of the rich and one for the poorest of the poor", a self-righteous nation whose government has a tendency to think they have a right to play the World Police department, and who many nations around the world see as being a bully and out of line.

Even in our own country, many feel our government is oppressive, self righteous, and in violation of the original rights afforded to us by our founding fathers. They have no regard for separation of church and state, nor do they care what the people have to say if it interferes with their own personal agenda.

Burning the flag, to me, is a way to protest the joke that our government has become, with no respect for the people it supposedly represents or the principals upon which this country was founded.

Would I ever do it myself? Maybe. I'm a very, very stout Patriot who loves what her country once stood for and the basic principals that this country was founded upon. I have the utmost respect for the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution, and an unwavering love and admiration for our military persons. I would have to think very long and hard about whether or not burning the flag would disrespect our servicemen and women, the Constitution, or the Declaration.

But in the end it should be my choice, just as it is my choice to say what I think about my government in any other form of protest.

Hey Matdredalia I completely agree that the act invokes reaction and certianly plenty of discussion. My point though is that the reaction and discussion become about the act it self and the original point that is being protested more often than not gets lost in the furer.

I'm all for defending ones right to burn a flag but I just seriously question its effectivness.

Hypnoticmix, Matdredalia,& Robinesque, great posts!

I find a number of things - including burning - that people do to our flag offensive. For example, wearing flag lapel pins while trying to take away or otherwise curtail our rights - including the rights to the freedom of speech, the freedom of religion, the freedom of assembly and the right, as established by the Supreme Court, to privacy - is offensive.

I also find it offensive when people wave the flag and use it to rally support for an ill-conceived and ill-planned war against the wrong target and fought for all the wrong reasons, killing the Gods know HOW many civilians in the process along with thousands of our most honourable and courageous citizens who thought they were signing up to defend our nation, not to advance some neo-conservative fantasy. (Now, if you want to use the flag to rally people to go after the REAL culprits being 9/11 - i.e. Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda and the Taliban - I'm RIGHT there with you, but that's NOT what we did.)

There are other things I find offensive as well - Neo-Nazis/White Supremacists, people who want to legislate their religious morality and force me to live by their beliefs, the "God Hates Fags" group, people throwing paint on people wearing fur, people holding protests to try and get the government involved in what should be a family's private tragedy (i.e. Terri Schiavo,) and so on. I could really make quite the list

The thing is, though, as much as I may be offended by these things, if I want to retain my OWN right to protest something, to lobby my government, and to practice my religion in peace, etc., I MUST, as a matter of pure principle, be willing to let all that other crap be presented in the same marketplace of ideas I'd want to make use of. In fact, by agreeing that they have the same right to try and make their case as I do, I assure my own right to protest what THEY'RE saying - which is how this whole thing is really supposed to work. Everyone has an equal chance to present their case to the general population, and whomever makes the best case wins. It's an integral part of Democracy.

So, as much as I don't like seeing the flag burned, I'd prefer to see *it* burned than give up my own right to protest that burning.

Ditto thorswitch

Honestly, I've never understood why everyone gets all hot about this. People have the right to protest and the diverse opinions of our citizen is what helps shape, change, and progress our country over time.

If someone were, say, burning down the White House, I wouldn't support that as an expression of free speech (obviously). That's dangerous and vandalism. But a flag is a symbol, nothing more.

People have the right to not be harmed or libeled against. But there's nothing in the Constitution protecting citizens from being offended. I'm offended every day by our current administration's words, but they have the right to say them.

I may be out of the loop, but is there a lot of flag burning going on in this country that I haven't heard about?

I haven't heard of a lot, lately, but given that we've just passed the 5th anniversary of the Iraq war and have now lost over 4,000 soldiers to it, it's likely that there will be an increase in anti-war protests (at least in the short term) and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see at least some isolated flag-burning happening at one or more of them.

I completely agree, menthadict. People so disenchanted with their government (any government) that they would burn the national symbols should find another country where they can live a life with less anger and resentment.

That's it Mariner, this seems an odd topic considering there don't seem to be any recent reports of U.S. flags being burned at protests (I did find a story about a flag of Scotland being burned) - like maybe we should debate streaking or bra burning next.

Someone earlier asked what the difference is between burning the flag or desecrating other symbols such as the Washington Monument. The difference is that there's only one Washington Monument and only one Mount Rushmore and so on. There are as many flags as people can make. Desecrating a unique monument - for example, the flag in the Smithsonian that was the one Frances Scott Key saw and which inspired him to write the anthem would be much, much different than burning a flag you picked up at the local Wal-Mart, because the flag in the Smithsonian is irreplaceable.

One of the great things about America is that the government is supposed to be "By the people" and "For the people" - founded on the principle of the majority ruling and the idea that if enough people can persuade enough other people that the current majority is wrong, they can form a new majority and vote in a government that will promote their ideas and reflect their will until such time as another new majority is formed and vote their new representatives in.

Telling people who are so angry with the government that they find it necessary to make a statement such as burning a flag is an incredible violation of that concept. It denies the current minority one potential tool (albeit of questionable effectiveness) to express themselves. There are so many other methods of expression (see my list above, for examples) that people find offensive, that if we start outlawing them all, the US will cease to be a democracy, since there won't be any room for dissent.

Think for a moment if you STRONGLY disagreed with the government - if they were passing laws you found abhorrent or felt the way the government was representing our nation in other countries, and you felt the only way to get your point across was to do something that others might be offended by, because you knew it would likely get coverage in the news and stir up interest in your cause. Would you feel that rather than making that protest and trying to convince others that they should take up your cause that you should just pack up and find a new country to make your home?

When I was younger, I'd make the protest, now, I think maybe I should start looking around.

I think the flag is a symbol of the nation, not the government, their current policies, or their wrongs.

Burning the flag (by Americans) is a symbol of hate for the nation, not for the current president and his policies.

As Americans we should criticize and try to change the wrong to better the country, burning the flag does not do that. For example, I am not opposed to someone burning an image of a policy or a politician, but burning something that represents the nation in past present and future is not really free speech to me, its hate. But, because not everyone sees it this way, I guess those people can hide behind the protection of free speech, even though the flag represents that right they are burning.

I can understand foreigners doing it as a sign of protest against government policies because when you are on the outside protesting another countries policies, a country you feel has wronged you, you don't stop to think of protesting politics by politician or policy by policy - outsiders see the final picture, but those of us on the inside know there is good and bad and we should know better than to stand against it all by burning the symbol that represents it all.

I think a lot of you have confused the issue here.

"What if we burned a flag not in protest but in celebration of the very freedoms that allow us to burn a flag?" -Penn Jillette

Burning a flag doesn't necesarily mean you hate your country. The flag certainly is a symbol of this country, but it is also a symbol of the liberties that have made this country great. Burning a flag (for whatever reason) can be seen as a celebration of those liberties.