thats not whats shes arguing... we made a mess of the country and we need to fix it, we don't need to repeat Vietnam

I actually agree with her. We can't just pull out all of the troops at one time. My boyfriend is over in Iraq right now and he totally agrees w/ me. He wants to come home but he's willing to stay there to protect the innocent Iraqi people who are being affected by this war.

I agree that we need to do this right, or as right as it is possible to make it(I'm not trying to be negative here, just realistic). One thing that is really a live-or-die element is to get the UN in an active position again, with influence, because it is the only way we can make it right is to do this on an international level and they are not going to re-involve themselves if they are going to be booted out or sidelined every time we disagree. We need to make a fresh start with the European Union, and start diplomatic processes with Iran, the elected opposition of Pakistan, Lebanon, Palestine, as well as voice the needs of Afghanistan, and the surrounding countries.

We need to have plans to rebuild infrastructure, for instance highways are easier to fix and maintain than railroad tracks should there be bombings, and school buildings, courts, hospitals, universities, and proper housing. Though at first they might be easy targets, it is imperative to give Iraqis a possibility to normalcy, so they have ways of building up their own societies again. But we will need international support and resources to do this. We have stretched out military so thin that maintaining our level of troops is mathematically impossible, unless we issue a draft.

I was surprised when I read this yesterday and I actually agreed with her... though I don't trust the UN to do anything.

Shop - A big thanks to you and your bf! I firmly believe we need the troops there to support Iraqi police and make sure they are effective before we can leave.

A draft is out of the question for me, no way, no way... the diplomatic relationship with those countries will be very difficult to start since many of them harbor terrorist within their borders

Shopaholichunny: That's what most soldiers are saying, and I think it is such a nobel and heroic way of thinking. We just need to make sure we do it right, for them and for the Iraqis. I think any soldier can testify that you are not a terrorist just because you are Iraqi or Muslim.

I hope for the best for you and your boyfriend.

Tres - I have to disagree. First, I think the UN has hated us long before this happened, this isn't new news and it really never has been. Second, while I agree that building infrastructure is important, none of that can get done successfully with out security.

And I think you're reaching for the stars when you want to have diplomacy with Iran et al, they have only vested interest in Iraq being in shambles. They don't want to help us and no amount of talking will change that.

And this country will never institute a draft again, thats a scare tactic. All troops would come home before that happened.

I wasn't saying that at all.. but many of the IED used against our soldier were manufactured in those neighboring countries

This is just one in a long line of many reasons to stay in Iraq. Listen to the troops. Don't turn the Iraqi war into a political issue. And don't state that you will immediately begin pulling troops out if you win the election. How can anyone running for President say that when they don't have all the facts? There's no way the candidates have the intel that would constitute them being able to say that in any way. Its irresponsible as a leader to say that you will bring the troops home immediately just to get votes.

Shop, your boyfriend is a hero in my eyes!

Awwww! Thanks sooo much Cabaker and Tres! I really appreciate it! You gals make my day! I miss him but I know he needs to be there for the greater good. And I agree with some of the points that all of ya'll are making.

Thanks sooo much Piper! You are right Piper. I hate when they turn the war into a political issue. They are in DC safe and comfortable arguing while our troops are overseas fighting the fight on the front lines

Did anyone hear that McCains son is going over seas to fight in Iraq?

And Shop I am with all the others on this one. Tell your boyfriend that there are still so many people here that regard him as a hero! My future brother in law may be going over again, as well as my sister in law, and I have many friends over there. My brother also faught in Afganastan, and Iraq and they all say the same thing as your boyfriend.

Well I hope the media doesn't blow the lid on McCain's son...

Thanks Cine! I appreciate it. You're right Cabaker...

Yeah I wonder about that. The only thing I will say, is that it may help his campaign. All the people who say that the bureaucrats that don't want to pull the troops out don't have any connection to the people fighting would have to eat their words.

Hey, Cine, I saw Barry Goldwater on Hannity and Colmes last night and thought of you! Well, not him but his picture. Apparently when he ran for President, people tried to make an issue out of him not being born on American soil, just like McCain.

Hillary was a Goldwater girl

Piper, he was born on Arizona Territory, before it was a state. I actually think they had more of a case against him, then McCain!

I love me some Barry, and he is rolling in his grave at what HIlary has become.

Cine - Yea, I agree with you. Thats a big part of what bothers me about Obama, he has no military experience at all and has no connections to anyone on the ground... or at least that I have heard of.

Then I saw him say the other day that if we pull out and Al Queda becomes a big prescence there we'll go back in... Uhhh, I don't WANNA go back in. I like to do things right the first time. Thats like saying, Well I'll eat right and exercise until I lose the weight, then I'll stop and I won't do it again till I put the pounds back on...

eerrrggghhhh... I could go on about this all day

There is one thing people do not understand. Iraq is a place where people struggled long before the war took place. My husband was in Iraq for a year and has been home for 4 months now. You all would cringe at the stories he had to tell. They don't have a sewer system so the feces floats down the street. That was something that was not caused by us. They use there own children as bait and then blow them up when US soldiers get near. People try to make it as though our soldiers are not there helping just because fighting is going on. There is no reason our husbands, sons, fathers or friends should die for someone else's freedom but that was their choice and for that I call them heroes. I applaud Angelina for wanting to do more but they are doing a lot there that people do not know about. Right now my son's school is doing a drive to get school supplies for children in Iraq. Little things can help just as much as millions of dollars. I believe pulling out the troops would do nothing but harm the Iraqis more and possibly all of us. I would hate to see my husband gone again for a year and miss another year of his children's lives but it is something that he, and most soldiers, feel very strongly about and that they all have volunteered for when they joined the Armed forces.

Gholson - A big thank you to you, your family, and your husband.

You make an excellent point.

Shop, hang in there and tell your boyfriend we pray for all the troops everyday! I know how hard it is to go through everyday wondering if he is okay! Women are very strong but Army wives and girlfriends, and all family memebers, are forced to be stronger! Your support to him will mean more than you will ever know!

"Al Queda becomes a big prescence there we'll go back in..."

Cabaker, I laughed when I read that he said this. It makes no sense, especially since we have, and I will use his buzz word, have had PROGRESS. Pulling our troops out is the single worst thing we could do.

gholson, you are making me teary eyed.

gholson: I can't express the gratitude that comes to mind when I hear your story, but I think you are doing an outstanding job. I completely agree that small things can make big changes, especially on the humanitarian level.

I made myself cry typing all of that!

Aah, well you made me emotional too!

I laughed too, then when McCain shot back I thought that would shut him up, but NOOOO.... He comes back with "There was no Al qaeda in Iraq till Bush went in there!"

OH man, I laughed because its so asinine but then I just got angry that someone with a complete lack of knowledge about the facts could get so far... CIA chief George Tenent said Zarqawi was in Iraq in 2002 and that they had contact with Saddam... this info was verified by the 9/11 commission!

eeerrgggghhhh!!!!

wow do i feel cold hearted! sorry gholson, you didn't get me

but my husband is leaving in a month and i'm trying to have tunnel vision to avoid crying! :)

Gholson! Thanks sooo much! I hope you will hang in there as well.

Cabaker, when he made the comment about Al qaeda not being there until we went in I rolled my eyes. Even if you think that, which is not true, but even if you do, he is admitting that Al qaeda is there now, so why would you pull the troops out?

Thats what confused me too!!

I'm just not "progressive" enough to understand.

I think its so refreshing for her to say this! I completely agree with her and I'm glad she had the courage to say this when alot of people are against this.
I knew I always liked her...

Cabaker, I am SO sick of "it is 2008! Haven't we progressed enough to _____________" - Fill in the blank

Personally, I think in many ways we have degenerated as a society.

My hubby's bro is a HUGE hippie, he got married last summer and I was put in charge of the camcorder... anyways, during his best man's speech, the best man said "i'm so glad my friend has met someone as EVOLVED as her"

it took everything inside of me not to burst out laughing. if you watch the tape you can see the camera move a bit cuz i was laughing... haha!

oh Cabaker, I would have died laughing. Stuff like that amuses me endlessly.

No way, we need to take care of the homeless and helpless people in the united states before we take care of Iraqians.

Could anyone direct me to articles about Al-qaeda pre-war in Iraq? I was of a different understanding than you guys, but I'm having a hard time finding something concrete about the issue.

Check out this article.

Tresjolie, the link gives a good explanation. Note that it does include a lot of opinion.

Thanks a bunch, Liberty!

here is another link trejolie
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-04-06-cheney_N.htm

Thanks Zahara! I'll read it right away. In the mean time I strongly suggest all of you read the article on Liberty's link.

I just read it, and thanks again Zahara!

no problem, trejolie, the bust administration is so corrupted, can't wait until January 20, 2009